1. Dec 14th, 2005

    StructuredBlogging leaves me DRY

    The future of blogging?

    I’m just now catching up on yesterday’s announcement of StructuredBlogging, a non-profit initiative to add some structured data into blogging. That should get the XML purists and those sufferring from FFTP (Free-Form Text Phobia) excited.

    Snarky comments aside, there’s a bigger agenda in place, which affects even the less technical crowd. By adding structure, we can take blogging to a whole new level of uses, and expand from having conversations, to focus on killing CraigsList. Or at least share some of the revenues. Ok, I lied about snarky comments aside.

    Why Structure is a Good Thing(tm)

    Think of the world from the eyes of a blogger. You want people to come to you, not come to them. You want your stuff in your place, not all over the place. It’s not just about ego, it’s about convenience, usefulness, identity and reputation.

    If I’m writing reviews, I want to have them on my blog. I don’t have the time to put my book reviews on Amazon and my movie reviews on NetFlix and my cellphone review on Eopinions and my bicycle reviews on MTB. Besides being more convenient, it also establishes an identity. Would you trust my first NetFlix review if you knew I’m a top reviewer on Amazon? But you have no way of finding that out.

    Reputation goes along with identity. If I know your eBay ratings, I’m more likely to want to buy something from you over CL. But right now all that useful information gets broken down into bits and pieces, that are then scattered over the net and placed in focused mega-site, instead of being owned by whoever created them.

    The more services we have out there — reviews, listings, events, social networks, forums — the more time you spend putting content in the “right place” and the less useful that content is to you, simply because it’s fragmented all over the place.

    But it doesn’t have to be that way. There’s no technical justification why I can’t search the net for events happening today in the BayArea, reviews of Narnia, or someone willing to sell me an 802.11g card for $20 (hint, hint). And there’s no reason why I need a site for each one of these searches.

    This is where structure comes in. Because computers are powerful, but stupid. They can search it all, but they can’t tell it’s an event unless you somehow mark it as such, and they can’t tell it’s happening today unless you mark the start date. They need some help, some structure.

    Less is more: Microformats

    A simple solution, it turns out, is to just add a little bit of marking to blog posts that helps computers understand the relevant stuff. That’s what Microformats are all about. They add a little bit of tags to help you mark an event, review, or anything else you may want to specify.

    It’s fairly hackish, but very effective in dealing with the more useful structures. I don’t think we’ll be seeing Microformats for deadling with expense reports and shipping orders, but I also don’t care. When it comes to finding stuff on the Web, Microformats cover it well.

    One of the core principles is humans first, machines second. But I’ve used Microformats from the technology end of it, and compared to other technologies, it’s also easy for machines and for the humans that program them.

    Purity and Dryness

    I have to admit to some personal agenda. I have this sliver of hope that if Microformats catch up, not only will they be more useful to you and me, but they will also prove that we don’t need to use XML all over the place.

    XML is the pure way of dealing with structure, and it has a lot of benefits. Unfortunately, all too often XML is being used where a simpler solution exists, turning one problem into another. After all, structure for the sake of structure is just another form of chaos.

    And here lies my gripe with StructuredBlogging. In addition to microformats, we also get X-Subnote. And you use X-Subnote to publish the exact same content, but duplicated as XML and then folded back into the HTML. And in doing so, X-Subnotes violates two design principles:

    1. If a simpler solution exists, go solve something else.

    2. Do not repeat yourself.

    Now, as a user I probably don’t care much about what format the content is, or which design principles gets violated, all that is just geeky meta talk. Does it work? Does it help me find the stuff I need, and promote the stuff I have?

    Yes, but there’s a lesson the Internet teaches us about technologies. Those that have low barriers to entry get adopted fast, spread quickly and spring new and compelling uses at lower price points. Those that have high barrier to entry also have less competition, and so less innovation.

    The benefit of low barrier technologies is that fact that I’m sitting here blogging, instead of posting on an AOL forum and paying $49/month for the privilege. We used simple, sometimes hackish, technologies to get here, do we really want to stop now?

    Are Blogs the new 3270?

    Here’s an interesting screencast about XML-driven structured blogging. That’s the type of stuff you can’t do with Microformats, they just don’t extend that far. But is it interesting? Are you really looking forward to the day when you can blog a purchase order or a sales invoice?

    I got this screencast from Alex Barnett’s blog. A few weeks before, he posted this:

    “the chance of a standard being adopted is inversely proportional to its complexity”

    Blogging purchase orders looks to me like a solution waiting for a problem. We have XForms for dealing with entry and display of structured data. Databases that just live to store that stuff, and back-end systems designed to do something interesting with it. And yes, you can also pull it out as XML, and display it as HTML, and have all sorts of fancy graphs and charts.

    But would I “blog” it? Why?

    Maybe I’m missing the whole point for this use of XML in HTML, maybe it is better than Microformats. If so, can someone please explain ot to me?

    Photo by Carrick

    1. Dec 15th, 2005

      Labnotes » Blog Archive » StructuredBlogging, Redux

      [...] My PubSub vanity feed just uncovered this post. Aside from being a reply to my earlier post on StructuredBlogging, it also includes links to others commentators, and I got to learn what other people are thinking about the new initiate. I really like this way of carrying out an online conversation. [...]

    2. Dec 15th, 2005

      Web2.0Focus, 关注该关注的… » 结构是好东西-Microformats

      [...]    从blogger的角度思考世界。你希望别人走向你,而不是你走向被人。你希望自己的资料存在属于你的地方,而不是到处。这不是单纯的自我意识作怪,这有关于便利,用途,身份和名誉。       如果我写评论,我希望在属于自己的blog上发布。我没有时间把书评发布到亚马逊上,或是把影评发布到NetFlix……等等。在自己的blog 上发布除更方便外,这同时也是在确立一种身份。如果你知道我在亚马逊上是一位高级的评论家,那么即使是我在NetFlix上的第一篇评论,你也会毫不犹豫 地信任。但是你没有办法得知这些。    名声伴随身份,在通过Craigslist达成交易时,如果能得知你的eBay信用等级,我更可能希望向你购买商品。但现在所有有用的信息都已被分解成零星琐碎散布在网络中,放置在拥有大量信息的网站上。而不是由信息的创造者拥有它。    在这些网站上我们可以使用更多的服务譬如评论、目录、事件、社群、论坛等等。当你花费更多的时间将自己的内容发布到这些所谓的“正确位置”时,结果却是使这些内容对你越来越没用处。很简单,因为内容已经被打破成碎片分散各处,不能完整地反映你的身份或是特性。    从技术角度说我是可以通过网络搜索到今天发生在海湾地区的事件,Narnia的评论,或是找到某个可能愿意以20美元卖给我一张802.11卡的人。而且并不是每一类型的搜索需要一个网站。在这里就需要结构的作用了(使搜索更加精确)。    虽然计算机很强大但它并不智能。计算机可以搜索全部信息却不能识别什么是事件,除非你设法标明它,并且计算机也不能告诉这是今天发生的,除非给事件标记起始日期。计算机需要一些帮助,也就是说一些结构。    简单的解决办法是为blog posts增加一些标记,帮助计算机理解相关材料。这就是Microformats所讲述的。他们增加一些标签(例如"class", "rel", or "rev")帮助你标明一次事件、评论或者你可能想要指定的其它任何事情。这在处理更有用的结构过程中非常有效。当涉及在Web上搜索资料时, Microformats表现也很出色。    Microformats的核心原则之一:人是第一位的,机器第二位。但我已经从技术末端使用Microformats,与其他技术相比,无论是对于机器 或是对于编程的人都很容易。我承认我希望Microformats的发展,不仅说明Microformats对你我都更有帮助并且证明我们不必到处都使用 XML。    上面的部分节选自 《StructuredBlogging leaves me DR》作者并不完全支持StructuredBlogging 的概念,具体请参考原文。引用上部只为从不同角度说明结构化blog的趋势。    以下为个人看法,疏漏谬误之处请指正,再此感谢。    microformats 更倾向于是面向页面,利用标签例如("class", "rel", or "rev")为页面包含信息,譬如链接,作定义与识别,特点是覆盖广泛,轻便灵活,维护成本低。    StructuredBlogging 是面向数据,通过定义不同的数据结构,完成信息的定义与识别,特点是准确,便于信息采集与加工,但维护成本高。      结构化blog的发展方向多样,还会出现更多不同角度的blog系统革新。(本文为节选β译,水平有限难免错误疏漏,原文《StructuredBlogging leaves me DR》) [...]

    3. Dec 16th, 2005

      Bob Wyman

      Structured Blogging is a thing you do. It is not a data format. Structured Blogging is not tied to the x-subnode language, it can be done with microformats as well. If x-subnode and Structured Blogging were the same thing, I would have named it x-structuredblogging instead of x-subnode…

      As you seem to recognize yourself, the scope of microformats is limited to the (large) realm of fairly simple tagging problems. On the other hand, if you want to do the kind of complex, many-fielded thing that is demonstrated in the wonderful but geeky reger.com screencast, you probably want something like x-subnode and XML as your format. But, if you don’t need that kind of power, you don’t have to use it. The x-subnode mechanism is simply provided to handle those cases that don’t already have solutions, those cases where the data to be stored is complex, and those cases where industry standardization efforts have already defined XML formats and it would be ridiculous to go reinventing the wheel by converting these standards to microformats, RDF or some other format.

      Personally, I don’t agree that “microformats” are as simple as you suggest. I think they are much more complex to edit and parse than simple wrapped XML inclusions that exploit the x-subnode method…. Digging around in XHTML DOM trees looking for class and attribute tags ain’t pretty… However, if people want the microformats as a result of their doing Structured Blogging, it’s ok with me. What I want is to see people do Structured Blogging. I’m not much concerned with what formats are the result of people doing it.

      In developing the Structured Blogging effort, we’ve followed your rule of “humans first, machines second”. Rather than blathering on at length about formats, etc. what we do is provide tools to make it easy for humans to do Structured Blogging. Our tools focus first on helping publishers produce well formatted, visually distinct, and easy to write blog entries. These tools are valuable whether or not any downstream processor ever reads the structured data which is embedded in the resulting posts. We’ve “proved” this by strictly refusing to build any applications that aggregated Structured Blogging posts even though we released the first version last winter and there have been hundreds of bloggers using the tools since then. We wanted to drive home the point that it makes sense for bloggers to use these tools even if noone exploits the structured data other than their own blogging system. For an example, take a look at: http://incredibooks.com . The kids that run that site have been writing book reviews for months. Clearly, Structured Blogging helps them build a better site.

      Structured Blogging is a thing you do. Microformats are just one of the things that might result from your doing Structured Blogging. x-subnode might be there too. Who cares. It is the activity of Structured Blogging and the production of formatted data that is important. Which format is used just doesn’t matter in most cases.

      bob wyman

    4. Dec 16th, 2005

      Labnotes » Blog Archive » More on StructuredBlogging

      [...] More on StructuredBlogging First, go and read Bob Wyman’s (of PubSub) comment to my post. He has a lot of interesting things to say, and makes valid points. So don’t just take my word, read his side first. Structured Blogging is a thing you do. Microformats are just one of the things that might result from your doing Structured Blogging. x-subnode might be there too. Who cares. [...]

    5. Jan 2nd, 2006

      NeverLand » links for 2006-01-02

      [...] Labnotes » Blog Archive » StructuredBlogging leaves me DRY (tags: StructuredBlogging Microformats) [...]

    6. Mar 25th, 2006

      Alex Barnett blog : It is *my* Attention data and identity

      [...] It is *my* Attention data and identity Assaf has provided a thought-provoking post about Structured Blogging. He discusses merits of XML / HTML vs. Microformats and has other critisisms of Structured Blogging (SB). I’ve quoted this portion of his post (my bold) because it really nails the ‘it is my Attention data’ idea and how it relates to identity, something Joshua and I discussed with Dick Hardt and Kim Cameron in last week’s podcast, Attention and Identity: “Think of the world from the eyes of a blogger. You want people to come to you, not come to them. You want your stuff in your place, not all over the place. It’s not just about ego, it’s about convenience, usefulness, identity and reputation. If I’m writing reviews, I want to have them on my blog. I don’t have the time to put my book reviews on Amazon and my movie reviews on NetFlix and my cellphone review on Eopinions and my bicycle reviews on MTB. Besides being more convenient, it also establishes an identity. Would you trust my first NetFlix review if you knew I’m a top reviewer on Amazon? But you have no way of finding that out. Reputation goes along with identity. If I know your eBay ratings, I’m more likely to want to buy something from you over CL. But right now all that useful information gets broken down into bits and pieces, that are then scattered over the net and placed in focused mega-site, instead of being owned by whoever created them. The more services we have out there — reviews, listings, events, social networks, forums — the more time you spend putting content in the “right place” and the less useful that content is to you, simply because it’s fragmented all over the place.” Tags: Attention, attentiontrust, attention.xml, identity, microformats structured_blogging Filed Under: Web, Tech, Web 2.0, Attention, microformats [...]

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